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The English white dragon is a Welsh idea


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#1 Valkyrie

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:42 PM

I've come across quite a few references to a white dragon flag for the English, and it's mentioned here too, but the origin of the white dragon symbol for the English comes from Welsh myth. Why are we using Welsh myth to define ourselves? The earliest reference is Nennius, from the 9th century, though he was later copied by Geoffrey of Monmouth. In Nennius's version it was the boy Ambrosius talking to King Vortigern, though Geoffrey made Ambrosius into Merlin.

Nennius, Historia Brittonum:

respondit puer regi: quis tibi monstrauit? et rex: magi mei mihi dixere. et puer dixit: ad me uocentur. et inuitati sunt magi et puer illis dixit: quis reuelauit uobis, ut ista arx a sanguine meo aspergeretur? et nisi aspergeretur a sanguine meo, in aeternum non aedificabitur? sed hoc ut cognoscat is, quis mihi de me palam fecit? iterum puer dixit, modo tibi, o rex, elucubrabo et in ueritate tibi omnia satagam; sed magos tuos percunctor: quid in pauimento istius loci est? placet mihi, ut ostendant tibi, quid sub pauimento habetur. at illi dixere: nescimus. et ille dixit: comperior: stagnum in medio pauimenti est; uenite et fodite et sic inuenietis. uenerunt et foderunt, et ruit. et puer ad magos dixit: proferte mihi, quid est in stagno? et siluerunt et non potuerunt reuelare illi. et ille dixit illis: ego uobis reuelabo; duo uasa sunt et sic inuenietis. uenerunt et uiderunt sic. et puer ad magos dixit: quid in uasis conclusis habetur? at ipsi siluerunt et non potuerunt reuelari illi. at ille asseruit: in medio eorum tentorium est, separate ea et sic inuenietis. et rex separari iussit et sic inuentum est tentorium complicatum, sicut dixerat. et iterum interrogauit magos eius: quid in medio tentorii est? et iam nunc narrate, et non potuerunt scire. at ille reuelauit: duo uermes in eo sunt, unus albus et unus rufus; tentorium expandite. et extenderunt et due uermes dormientes inuenti sunt. et dixit puer: expectate et considerate quid facient uermes; et coeperunt uermes, ut alter alterum expelleret, alius autem scapulas suas ponebat, ut eum usque ad dimidium tentorii expelleret, et sic faciebant tribus uicibus: tamen tandem infirmior uidebatur uermis rufus et postea fortior albo fuit et extra finem tentorii expulit; tunc alter alterum secutus trans stagnum est et in tentorium euanuit. et puer ad magos refert: quid significat mirabile hoc signum, quod factum est in tentorio? et illi proferunt: nescimus. et puer respondit: en reuelatum est mihi hoc mysterium et ego uobis propalabo. regni tui figura tentorium est; duo uermes duo dracones sunt; uermis rufus draco tuus est et stagnum figura huius mundi est. at ille albus draco illius gentis, quae occupauit gentes et regiones plurimas in brittannia, et paene a mari usque ad mare tenebunt, et postea gens nostra surget, et gentem anglorum trans mare uiriliter deiciet. tu tamen de ista arce uade, quia eam aedificare non potes, et multas prouincias circumi, ut arcem tutam inuenias, et ego hic manebo.

"Who," said the boy, "instructed you to do this?" "My wise men," answered the king. "Order them hither," returned the boy; this being complied with, he thus questioned them: "By what means was it revealed to you that this citadel could not be built, unless the spot were previously sprinkled with my blood? Speak without disguise, and declare who discovered me to you;" then turning to the king, "I will soon," said he, "unfold to you every thing; but I desire to question your wise men, and wish them to disclose to you what is hidden under this pavement:" they acknowledging their ignorance, "there is," said he, "a pool; come and dig:" they did so, and found the pool. "Now," continued he, "tell me what is in it;" but they were ashamed, and made no reply. "I," said the boy, "can discover it to you: there are two vases in the pool;" they examined, and found it so: continuing his questions," What is in the vases?" they were silent: "there is a tent in them," said the boy; "separate them, and you shall find it so;" this being done by the king's command, there was found in them a folded tent. The boy, going on with his questions, asked the wise men what was in it? But they not knowing what to reply, "There are," said he, "two serpents, one white and the other red; unfold the tent;" they obeyed, and two sleeping serpents were discovered; "consider attentively," said the boy, "what they are doing." The serpents began to struggle with each other; and the white one, raising himself up, threw down the other into the middle of the tent, and sometimes drove him to the edge of it; and this was repeated thrice. At length the red one, apparently the weaker of the two, recovering his strength, expelled the white one from the tent; and the latter being pursued through the pool by the red one, disappeared. Then the boy, asking the wise men what was signified by this wonderful omen, and they expressing their ignorance, he said to the king, "I will now unfold to you the meaning of this mystery. The pool is the emblem of this world, and the tent that of your kingdom: the two serpents are two dragons; the red serpent is your dragon, but the white serpent is the dragon of the people who occupy several provinces and districts of Britain, even almost from sea to sea: at length, however, our people shall rise and drive away the Saxon race from beyond the sea, whence they originally came; but do you depart from this place, where you are not permitted to erect a citadel; I, to whom fate has allotted this mansion, shall remain here; whilst to you it is incumbent to seek other provinces, where you may build a fortress."

http://www.vortigern...ernquoteshb.htm
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#2 Sigefæst

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:07 AM

The Saxons used to carry dragon heads into battle with them. They were like a wind sock and used to make a howling noise as the wind went through them. This is probably the origins of both the welsh and English dragon.
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#3 Steven

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:33 PM

Bit difficult to argue with something that is part of the Bayeux Tapestry. The symbol of a dragon was used by King Harold II at Senlac Hill and he wasn't figting the Welsh. A white dragon (wyrm) had been a symbol of the House of Wessex (West Saxons) for centuries - each Saxon tribe had a different coloured windsock but they all used the dragon. The comtemporary flag of Wessex is gold on red. The Saxons brought the dragon symbol with them to Britannia. Germanic tribes in victory would take the symbols of their enemy, in this case probably the Roman.

Steve
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PARLIAMENT IS THE ENEMY OF THE ENGLISC NATION


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The English, insofar as they recognise their origin, identity and cultural roots, are not 'Westerners', but an ancient northern people - Rev. John Lovejoy

hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare þe ure mægen lytlað


#4 Teutoburg Weald

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:04 PM

Dragon wind socks, Dragon standards were brought here by the Masters of the so-called Celts, the Romans, who had probably got em from the Dacian's or some other tribe, perhaps even fighting other Germanic Tribes....

Besides, you can't rely on their myths, you see their a beaten people, they should get use to it....Besides, the Welsh are calling themselves what the Elder Englisc use to call em.........'Wealasic' meaning Out sider, Slave, loser, Sheep Rape er's!!

Besides, why should you, an Englisc girl, be to bothered about what Taffy Myth says about us, or the White Dragon????

Bit odd isn't it?

TW
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“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”

― Cicero

 

 

 ‘Had we lived, I should have had a tale to tell of the hardihood, endurance and courage of my companions that would have stirred the heart of every Englishman’.

 

"Don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! And even then we won't listen!"

 

 

 

 

 

E.L.A.M.O

 

 


#5 Valkyrie

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:36 PM

Dragon wind socks, Dragon standards were brought here by the Masters of the so-called Celts, the Romans, who had probably got em from the Dacian's or some other tribe, perhaps even fighting other Germanic Tribes....

Besides, you can't rely on their myths, you see their a beaten people, they should get use to it....Besides, the Welsh are calling themselves what the Elder Englisc use to call em.........'Wealasic' meaning Out sider, Slave, loser, Sheep Rape er's!!

Besides, why should you, an Englisc girl, be to bothered about what Taffy Myth says about us, or the White Dragon????

Bit odd isn't it?

TW


It's not so much what they say about it, rather, that they might have invented it.

Are there any sources that say the Anglo-Saxons used dragon standards? Especially any that predate Nennius, in the 9th century? Bede would be a good one, if he did. Does he?
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#6 Teutoburg Weald

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:03 PM

The Waelasic didn't invent it, that is for sure, there no real hard facts that the Waelaisc had anything like a standard, of any sort, there are pre-Englisc arrival sources of Germanic Tribes carrying Dragon and Wolfs head Wind Socks into Battle, and the Englisc are of Germanic Heritage.......It is probable that the Romans brought the Dragon Standard with them when they made the so-called Celts Beg for mercy, but other wise stories of Red and White Dragons fighting it out under the ground in so-called Celtic Cornwall, are simply that, stories, mostly invented to make the Defeated feel better...

If there are elements of truth in those Waelaisc Myths, then the Waelasic must have got the view of the White Dragon from the incoming Germanic Warrior War Bands...But there is no reason to believe that the Sheep Humpers invented any Dragon...

But it is odd, for an Englisc Woman to be thinking any such thing in the first place, very odd indeed.....

Besides, what evidence do you have that the Sheep Worriers invented the White Dragon??
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“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”

― Cicero

 

 

 ‘Had we lived, I should have had a tale to tell of the hardihood, endurance and courage of my companions that would have stirred the heart of every Englishman’.

 

"Don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! And even then we won't listen!"

 

 

 

 

 

E.L.A.M.O

 

 


#7 Steven

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:04 PM

It's not so much what they say about it, rather, that they might have invented it


I don't think Germanic warriors were that much into graphic art. Try this explanation, which starts here

Steve
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PARLIAMENT IS THE ENEMY OF THE ENGLISC NATION


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The English, insofar as they recognise their origin, identity and cultural roots, are not 'Westerners', but an ancient northern people - Rev. John Lovejoy

hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare þe ure mægen lytlað


#8 Valkyrie

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:08 PM

The Waelasic didn't invent it, that is for sure, there no real hard facts that the Waelaisc had anything like a standard, of any sort, there are pre-Englisc arrival sources of Germanic Tribes carrying Dragon and Wolfs head Wind Socks into Battle, and the Englisc are of Germanic Heritage.......It is probable that the Romans brought the Dragon Standard with them when they made the so-called Celts Beg for mercy, but other wise stories of Red and White Dragons fighting it out under the ground in so-called Celtic Cornwall, are simply that, stories, mostly invented to make the Defeated feel better...

If there are elements of truth in those Waelaisc Myths, then the Waelasic must have got the view of the White Dragon from the incoming Germanic Warrior War Bands...But there is no reason to believe that the Sheep Humpers invented any Dragon...

But it is odd, for an Englisc Woman to be thinking any such thing in the first place, very odd indeed.....

Besides, what evidence do you have that the Sheep Worriers invented the White Dragon??


The evidence is Nennius. It's not odd at all to want to find out what actually happened. It would be ironic indeed if English nationalists had adopted a symbol invented by a Welsh monk.
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#9 Valkyrie

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:11 PM

I don't think Germanic warriors were that much into graphic art. Try this explanation, which starts here

Steve


An interesting piece, but lacking in any sources. I fully agree, though, that the St George flag is a symbol of Norman and Christian oppression of the English.
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#10 Teutoburg Weald

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:25 PM

The evidence is Nennius. It's not odd at all to want to find out what actually happened. It would be ironic indeed if English nationalists had adopted a symbol invented by a Welsh monk.


So Nennius, is recorded to have invented the White Dragon?? How come we haven't heard this before he's been mentioned on here before, and no one has pointed it out before..............

As for finding out what happened that far back, is going to be very hard indeed, since there no truly reliable sources to say one or the other..........It is contradiction at the best of times, and mostly theories!

Look at the Sutton Hoo Helmet for instance, take a real good look at it, and you'll see a Dragon with wings out stretched on there, was that made by Nennius or some other so-called Celt????
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“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”

― Cicero

 

 

 ‘Had we lived, I should have had a tale to tell of the hardihood, endurance and courage of my companions that would have stirred the heart of every Englishman’.

 

"Don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! And even then we won't listen!"

 

 

 

 

 

E.L.A.M.O

 

 


#11 Valkyrie

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:35 PM

So Nennius, is recorded to have invented the White Dragon?? How come we haven't heard this before he's been mentioned on here before, and no one has pointed it out before..............

As for finding out what happened that far back, is going to be very hard indeed, since there no truly reliable sources to say one or the other..........It is contradiction at the best of times, and mostly theories!

Look at the Sutton Hoo Helmet for instance, take a real good look at it, and you'll see a Dragon with wings out stretched on there, was that made by Nennius or some other so-called Celt????


Nennius is the first person who mentioned a white dragon for the English.

I don't know what the Sutton Hoo helmet looks like.
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#12 Teutoburg Weald

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:55 PM

Posted Image



Posted Image
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“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”

― Cicero

 

 

 ‘Had we lived, I should have had a tale to tell of the hardihood, endurance and courage of my companions that would have stirred the heart of every Englishman’.

 

"Don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! And even then we won't listen!"

 

 

 

 

 

E.L.A.M.O

 

 


#13 Woden's Child

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:56 PM

The Dragon or 'wyrm' is featured on the Bayeux Tapestry, and can be seen being used by both the Englisc and Norman armies. The dragon features in several cultures from around the world, so saying the Welsh invented the white one is a rather mute point. If we are going to take such things to the nth degree then you could argue that the red dragon of the Welsh came from elsewhere.
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#14 Steven

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:57 PM

I don't see your point with Nennius, what the Wealisc retell of it (red/white dragon) is their own business. The Bayeux Tapestry is not a myth.

Steve
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PARLIAMENT IS THE ENEMY OF THE ENGLISC NATION


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The English, insofar as they recognise their origin, identity and cultural roots, are not 'Westerners', but an ancient northern people - Rev. John Lovejoy

hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare þe ure mægen lytlað


#15 Steven

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:03 PM

Posted Image



Posted Image


Valkyrie is without sight you twat.

Steve
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PARLIAMENT IS THE ENEMY OF THE ENGLISC NATION


Posted Image


The English, insofar as they recognise their origin, identity and cultural roots, are not 'Westerners', but an ancient northern people - Rev. John Lovejoy

hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare þe ure mægen lytlað


#16 Valkyrie

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:06 PM

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Posted Image


???
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#17 Valkyrie

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:07 PM

The Dragon or 'wyrm' is featured on the Bayeux Tapestry, and can be seen being used by both the Englisc and Norman armies. The dragon features in several cultures from around the world, so saying the Welsh invented the white one is a rather mute point. If we are going to take such things to the nth degree then you could argue that the red dragon of the Welsh came from elsewhere.


It's just a question of tracking down the sources.
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#18 Valkyrie

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:08 PM

I don't see your point with Nennius, what the Wealisc retell of it (red/white dragon) is their own business. The Bayeux Tapestry is not a myth.

Steve


Nennius predates the Bayeux Tapestry by about 200 years.
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#19 Steven

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:20 PM

Nennius predates the Bayeux Tapestry by about 200 years


That, in itself, would not make the white dragon a Welsh myth. Taking the symbols of your enemy and using them was fairly common and if you extrapolate from that you can then understand why the Saxons would use a symbol belonging to one of their (historically) greatest foes. The Saxons didn't rate the Wealisc who, after four centuries canoodling with the Romans, had gone a bit soft.

Steve
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PARLIAMENT IS THE ENEMY OF THE ENGLISC NATION


Posted Image


The English, insofar as they recognise their origin, identity and cultural roots, are not 'Westerners', but an ancient northern people - Rev. John Lovejoy

hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare þe ure mægen lytlað


#20 Teutoburg Weald

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:22 PM

That is the Sutton Hoo Helm, if you look closely at the Nose, Brows and the head you will see the body, wings and head od a Dragon meeting with the head of another Dragon, coming from the back of the Helmet....

Nennius predates the Tapestry far more than 200 i think......

Nannius speaks of a White Dragon of the Englisc, he does not speak of the Romanised Brythons inventing it or anything else, i believe that is simply your theory........
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“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”

― Cicero

 

 

 ‘Had we lived, I should have had a tale to tell of the hardihood, endurance and courage of my companions that would have stirred the heart of every Englishman’.

 

"Don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! And even then we won't listen!"

 

 

 

 

 

E.L.A.M.O