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Were the English here before?


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#1 Valkyrie

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:13 PM

The standard opinion is that there were no English in Britiain before the late Roman period, and given that there is virtually no Latin in Old English (whereas Welsh is full of it), this seems reasonable, since wherever they went the Romans took their language with them. It also accords with historical sources such as Gildas and Bede.

My hunch, and it might sound a bit strange, is the the English were here before, long before the Romans. In particular I find it difficult to believe the stone circles that exist across our country in their hundreds were built by people who were not us. I think the English, or the Angles, whatever one should call them at such a remote period, were settled here before the Celts came.
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#2 Karl

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:56 PM

There were certainly Germnaic's in the Roman army. It was documented that the Romans employed 'Germans' which likely included Saxons and others from the Rhine frontier and there is Runic inscription on Hadrians Wall.
Before the Romans, the Belgae are an interesting people. Some say they were celt, others Germanic, others still say ethnically Germanic, culturally celt. They settled all over what was to become southern England and likely married into the leading families of the other tribes. Boudicca herself may have had some Germanic heritage. Maybe those early Germanics prepared the path for the mass movemnet of the Englisc around 449.
I think we were on this island long before the scots crossed over from Ireland, but there were others here before in the very distant past who built the stone circles which the coming Englisc must of held in great respect and wonder.

Edited by Karl, 25 June 2012 - 04:14 PM.

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When Hengest routed the wealas we were proud
When Penda withstood the cross we were proud
When Alfred stayed the Danes we were proud

Heroes passed unto ye we give hail
Mighty men without fear, without shame
Some will say that our pride is a sin
But in their name we'll unite and we're proud to be proud

When victory was won at Brunanburh we were proud
When Byrhtnoth raised his sword we were proud
When Harold destroyed Hardrada we were proud
When Hereward defied the bastard we were proud

Slowly with time the past slips away
But deep in our souls their memory stays
Weapons of guilt won't conquer our minds
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The ignorant void ever opening wide
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#3 Valkyrie

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:03 PM

There were certainly Germnaic's in the Roman army. It was documented that the Romans employed 'Germans' which likely included Saxons and others from the Rhine frontier and there is Runic inscription on Hadrians Wall.
Before the Romans, the Belage are an interesting people. Some say they were celt, others Germanic, others still say ethnically Germanic, culturally celt. They settled all over what was to become southern England and likely married into the leading families of the other tribes. Boudicca herself may have had some Germanic heritage. Maybe those early Germanics prepared the path for the mass movemnet of the Englisc around 449.
I think we were on this island long before the scots crossed over from Ireland, but there were others here before in the very distant past who built the stone circles which the coming Englisc must of held in great respect and wonder.


According to the German archaeologist Jurgen Spanuth, the centre of the European Megalithic civilisation was Jutland, which, in later times, is the area inhabited by the Angles.
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#4 Andy

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:20 PM

The Angles who gave their name to the Anglisc/English were not here in any great number if at all. There is little if any evidence to suggest otherwise.

We know that the northern Europeans were a sea faring people and probobly raided and possibly settled in small numbers.
But certainly nothing substantial.

Where are the Germanic peoples or names written by the Romans in Britain?
The Romans mentioned the Angles in Northern Europe around 98AD they spoke of the Germanic culture, where are the records for Germanic people in Britain?

However, Saxo Grammaticus writes in his Danish histories written in the early 13th century (1200-1300) of trips to Britain (Amleth/Hamlet) and Ireland prior to his story of King Offa whom is I belive prior to the settlement of Britain.
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#5 Valkyrie

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:32 PM

The Angles who gave their name to the Anglisc/English were not here in any great number if at all. There is little if any evidence to suggest otherwise.

We know that the northern Europeans were a sea faring people and probobly raided and possibly settled in small numbers.
But certainly nothing substantial.

Where are the Germanic peoples or names written by the Romans in Britain?
The Romans mentioned the Angles in Northern Europe around 98AD they spoke of the Germanic culture, where are the records for Germanic people in Britain?

However, Saxo Grammaticus writes in his Danish histories written in the early 13th century (1200-1300) of trips to Britain (Amleth/Hamlet) and Ireland prior to his story of King Offa whom is I belive prior to the settlement of Britain.


If Jurgen Spanuth is correct, the Germanic peoples in Britain who built the stone circles were later replaced by the Celts, so there would be no surviving Germanic names in Britain by the time of the Roman Conquest.
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#6 Steven

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:28 PM

The Last Glacial Period ended around 10,000 years ago. Forget anything before then with regards to Britain - which was connected to Jutland by land bridge - as it was beyond human habitation. The average temperature was -8c throughout the period, which started 110,000 years ago. There were some cave dwellers in southern Ireland 30,000 years ago but whoever they were it was in the pre-tribal era. There was a slight warming around 14,000 years ago and that may explain some remains found in Kent which showed Germanic rituals in use. The Englisc ethnic group comes from a handful of ancient Northern European tribes. How old these tribes were and how they came to be is indeed important to us, but it does not in itself define who we are. The creation of England, our homeland, does define us. The definition of indigenous is originating in one particular area and ours, we named after ourselves. One would not exist without the other. So, ethnically we are Englisc and racially we are Northern European, a Caucasian sub-clade.

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#7 Sigefæst

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:38 PM

I think the ancient Englisc could well have been here in small numbers, they certainly traded far and wide many of their jewels were brought in from far off places. The ancient people's also traded in spices from the far east.
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#8 Guthlac

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:46 PM

'Celts' never existed in England nor Britain, a common misconception. ..The Romans did hire Germanic mercenaries to serve in Britain. The Germanic tribes also were accustomed, here and when in their former Baltic homelands, of putting up standing stones for religious purposes and to commemorate battles (King Harold also did this).


Before 410

The text below from 406 to 410 sums up the last years of direct Roman rule over Britain. Please click on the heading if you would like to go back further into the history of Roman Britain before 410.

In 406 the Roman Army was withdrawn from Britain to deal with an invasion into Gaul of the Vandals, Alans and Suevi from across the Rhine. In 407 the Rhine froze over and this gave the Vandals easy access to the wealth and comforts of the Empire. In 409 a major Saxon invasion took place in Britain without the Roman army to repel them. Saxons had raided the East coast early in the 3rd century and from 270 to 285 the Romans had built the Forts of the Saxon shore to cope with the threat. In addition, the Romans had employed some Germanic peoples as mercenaries and settled them in Britain to help with defence. By 410, the country of Britain was being left to maintain itself as best it could, as part of the Empire, but without the Empire's old might and resources to sustain it.

The period which followed has been called the Dark Ages, because there was no longer anybody recording events for the next two or three hundred years.


From St Edmundsbury Borough Council



Neither British nor European, just English. ('British and European' are foreign words for and from foreign peoples).

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#9 Valkyrie

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:58 PM

'Celts' never existed in England nor Britain, a common misconception. ..The Romans did hire Germanic mercenaries to serve in Britain. The Germanic tribes also were accustomed, here and when in their former Baltic homelands, of putting up standing stones for religious purposes and to commemorate battles (King Harold also did this).


Before 410

The text below from 406 to 410 sums up the last years of direct Roman rule over Britain. Please click on the heading if you would like to go back further into the history of Roman Britain before 410.

In 406 the Roman Army was withdrawn from Britain to deal with an invasion into Gaul of the Vandals, Alans and Suevi from across the Rhine. In 407 the Rhine froze over and this gave the Vandals easy access to the wealth and comforts of the Empire. In 409 a major Saxon invasion took place in Britain without the Roman army to repel them. Saxons had raided the East coast early in the 3rd century and from 270 to 285 the Romans had built the Forts of the Saxon shore to cope with the threat. In addition, the Romans had employed some Germanic peoples as mercenaries and settled them in Britain to help with defence. By 410, the country of Britain was being left to maintain itself as best it could, as part of the Empire, but without the Empire's old might and resources to sustain it.

The period which followed has been called the Dark Ages, because there was no longer anybody recording events for the next two or three hundred years.


From St Edmundsbury Borough Council



Neither British nor European, just English. ('British and European' are foreign words for and from foreign peoples).


Britain spoke Celtic languages before, and during, the Roman period, so in that sense Celts were here.
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#10 Teutoburg Weald

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:23 PM

Celt is a Political construction as Guthlac more or less points out, it more or less originate around the time of the Act of Political Union with the Sweaties, in 1707, so the other lot, hanging around the fringes of the Island could distinguish themselves from the English Majority, all though the Southern Scots are of the same Germanic Ethnic root as the English, but they will not accept that fact.....

But otherwise, the term Celt, was not in anyway shape or form in use in the distant past, there were no such peoples called Celt, and there was no such language as Celt.......

It is simply a Political Construct, much like the Illusion of 'Britishness' Or 'British Identity' or even a country called Britain, since Britain is simply the Title of the Island which we Englisc made our own.....

Celt is of no historical note, it is of no ethnic note, and it is of no importance to the Heritage of the Englisc, which dates back to beyond this Island, and deep into the mists of Germanic Heritage and Ethnic Roots and blood....

TW
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æsctír here sum ándaga wulfséaþas brecðan scildweallas

 

Lo  þær drohtoþ ic lóc min fæder, Lo þær drohtoþ ic lóc min módor, ond min gesweostor ond min gebródor. Lo þær drohtoþ ic lóc séo lang of min Angelfolc. Lo hig drohtoþ gecégan æt mé ond bid mé bryidan min bæcern ámang  þæge rice wiusæl of valhalla bæcern þæt mðdhwæt magan búan widan.

 

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#11 Valkyrie

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:26 PM

Celt is a Political construction as Guthlac more or less points out, it more or less originate around the time of the Act of Political Union with the Sweaties, in 1707, so the other lot, hanging around the fringes of the Island could distinguish themselves from the English Majority, all though the Southern Scots are of the same Germanic Ethnic root as the English, but they will not accept that fact.....

But otherwise, the term Celt, was not in anyway shape or form in use in the distant past, there were no such peoples called Celt, and there was no such language as Celt.......

It is simply a Political Construct, much like the Illusion of 'Britishness' Or 'British Identity' or even a country called Britain, since Britain is simply the Title of the Island which we Englisc made our own.....

Celt is of no historical note, it is of no ethnic note, and it is of no importance to the Heritage of the Englisc, which dates back to beyond this Island, and deep into the mists of Germanic Heritage and Ethnic Roots and blood....

TW


I know they weren't called Celts but there is still such a thing as a Celtic language family. The name, though modern, describes something real. Germanic, as a term, is just as modern and artificial.
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#12 Guthlac

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:27 PM

Hello Valkyrie,

I'll disagree with you on that, they spoke Brittonic and Gaelic, which are not 'celtic' as no language called 'celtic' existed.

And England was founded by the English, who brought with them their own Germanic speech. And the English won the territory that would become England, by both the expulsion and annihilation of the Romano-Britons (and picts), who spoke Brittonic and Gaelic.
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#13 Valkyrie

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:30 PM

Hello Valkyrie,

I'll disagree with you on that, they spoke Brittonic and Gaelic, which are not 'celtic' as no language called 'celtic' existed.

And England was founded by the English, who brought with them their own Germanic speech. And the English won the territory that would become England, by both the expulsion and annihilation of the Romano-Britons (and picts), who spoke Brittonic and Gaelic.


It wasn't called Celtic, because this is a modern term, but it's a term that refers to a genuine language family. "Celtic" is no more artificial than "Germanic", which is a modern invention too.
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#14 Andy

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:05 AM

I think what Valkyrie is trying to say is that prior to the Germanic culture brought to Britain by the Angles and Saxons there was a culture and language that modern peoples call Celtic.
That nobody in that culture would have called themselves Celts but it is an understandable term. We know that when someone says Celt they dont mean the English.


WIKIPEDIA;
The first literary reference to the Celtic people, as Κελτοί (Κeltoi), is by the Greek historian Hecataeus of Miletus in 517 BC; he locates the Keltoi tribe in Rhenania (West/Southwest Germany).


As for those Scots with Germanic ancestry. As I am no gentic supremicist and wouldnt refer to anyone as a mongrol (which the media think is OK to use when refering to we English) then I consider the Scots, highland and lowland as being Scottish.
We English are English because of our identity and having an English ancestry even if it is a single parents. How can we deny the Scottish the same self determination. A Scot is a Scot.
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#15 Andy

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:10 AM

As for the term Germanic

My favourate Roman Tacitus wrote: 98AD


For the rest, they affirm Germania to be a recent word, lately bestowed. For those who first passed the Rhine and expulsed the Gauls, and are now named Tungrians, were then called Germani. And thus by degrees the name of a tribe prevailed, not that of the nation; so that by an appellation at first occasioned by fear and conquest, they afterwards chose to be distinguished, and assuming a name lately invented were universally called Germani.


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#16 Rídend

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:37 AM

As I’ve pointed out before in other threads, there have been some attractive reassessments on the Saxon Shore for few decades now which appears to show that the Saxons were likely settling in the eastern Britain long before the 5th century C.E. as told by the arrival of Hengest and Horsa. The archeology is showing a new story and one area they have looked at is the positioning of some of the forts, and they appear to be strangely oriented in what exactly they were suppose to be protect. A new take is these were not to protect from seaborne invaders but more against those already there and land-based. In Britain between 170 C.E. and 200 C.E. we have what is known as the “Antonine fires”, and it is associated with Germanic raiding. We also know that there were various Germanic tribes such as the Chauci operating in the North Sea in the 1st and 2nd century C.E.; in fact the Saxon Shore as it was dubbed later could actually be called the Chaucian Shore defences. With the shifting of tribal confederations, by the 3rd century C.E. the Saxons, Franks, Frisians, etc. were recognized seafaring raiders. So when people blither on about ‘Roman Britain’, the Germanics were all over that island in some form be it as mercenaries, legionnaires, raiders, and yes, settlers. The Germanic footprint on the island extends a lot further back than the 5th century, and that is a fact.
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#17 Guthlac

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:38 AM

As there was not a 'celtic people' there cannot have been a 'celtic language'. Where as the English, being as fact, and a Germanic folk, so had/have a Germanic speech.

German basically meaning "Spear man" (Gar = Spear + Man), a spear being the widely used weapon amongst early Germanic tribes, and all free men had one. Maybe this is the reason or one of a number of reasons, why the spear also has an important place in early English religious practises.
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#18 Valkyrie

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:03 AM

As there was not a 'celtic people' there cannot have been a 'celtic language'. Where as the English, being as fact, and a Germanic folk, so had/have a Germanic speech.

German basically meaning "Spear man" (Gar = Spear + Man), a spear being the widely used weapon amongst early Germanic tribes, and all free men had one. Maybe this is the reason or one of a number of reasons, why the spear also has an important place in early English religious practises.


There is a Celtic language family and a Germanic language family. The terms "Celtic" and "Germanic" are both modern inventions by linguists, to give names to these language families. If there was not a Celtic people, there was not a Germanic people either, because neither called themselves by those names.
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#19 Sigefæst

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:13 AM

What about the beaker people, where do they come in all of this? The colonised the whole of the western edge of Europe. Could our ancestors be a direct line from them also? If they made it from what is now modern day Portugal, western France, Britain and Ireland maybe they made it to the baltic. They certainly pre-date any of the "Celtic tribes".
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#20 Valkyrie

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:15 AM

What about the beaker people, where do they come in all of this? The colonised the whole of the western edge of Europe. Could our ancestors be a direct line from them also? If they made it from what is now modern day Portugal, western France, Britain and Ireland maybe they made it to the baltic. They certainly pre-date any of the "Celtic tribes".


The Beaker people are certainly connected with the Megalith builders. They may even have been the same as them.
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