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So, exatly why do we need Scotland?


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#1 Andy

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:16 AM

Hang on, Mr Salmond. The English MUST have a say on Scotland's future too...


By Simon Heffer
Last updated at 12:00 AM on 14th January 2012

Throughout this week’s byzantine debate about a referendum on Scottish independence, one voice has been missing — that of the people of England.
I’d like to know what these 51 million souls think about the question. After all, they represent the other — and by far the major — partner in the Union that the Scottish National Party seeks to dissolve.
As in some marriages, divorces happen when one side walks out.
However, I don’t understand why it is assumed that, in this particular marriage, that side would necessarily be Scotland.
Whatever one’s feelings about whether the Union should survive, it is democratically offensive to imagine the English do not have a right to be consulted.

Posted Image

Heading in different directions? David Cameron and Alex Salmond

Yet, in the various statements made by English politicians this week, the pretence has been that all the initiative and motivation to vote over the future of the Union lie with the Scots.
They certainly do not. Worse, one other subject is being avoided.
I refer, of course, to money.

Trying to establish exactly how much the English subsidise Scotland is slightly harder than chewing razor blades. But a subsidy there definitely is. And its very existence is the most compelling reason why England, and England’s elected representatives, must not stay silent over the possibility of Scottish independence.

The last Labour Government conceded that the subsidy paid by England was £22bn in 2007. But that was before its final years in office when it embarked on an irresponsible binge in public spending that was so corrosive to the British economy.

Last year the Treasury said the level of public spending per head in Scotland was £1,624 higher than in England. In addition, the current debt to the British taxpayer for bailing out the Royal Bank of Scotland is £26bn. I could go on.

However, the Scottish Nationalists will have none of this. What about their oil, they argue, and the contribution it makes to the revenue?

Scottish National Party leader Alex Salmond claims that 81 per cent of North Sea oil is in Scottish waters and in total will generate £54 billion in the six years to 2016/7.

But there is a dispute about what ‘Scottish waters’ in the North Sea actually are.
Do they begin along a line of latitude from Berwick-on-Tweed? Or does the maritime boundary continue to run north-eastwards, in the same direction into the sea as the land one? International maritime law suggests it is the latter, meaning that many more square miles of sea would be English.

There are many other questions. For example, given that many of the oilfields are around the Shetlands, is Mr Salmond sure that Shetlanders wish to be part of his independent Scotland? Or would they like to be independent themselves, or a dependency of England, or even of Norway?

As for wider financial issues, if the Union were to end, Mr Salmond wants a share of all Britain’s assets.
Scotland has 5.2 million people, or around 8 per cent of the population of the Kingdom. So, logically, it would be entitled to 8 per cent of British assets. Think, for example, of all those valuable embassies abroad.

Perhaps, in the event of separation, it should.

However, Scotland brought nothing into the marriage in 1707, when the Act of Union was passed, precisely because it had become bankrupt after a disastrous colonial venture in Darien in Central America.


A detailed calculation of the cumulative cost of 305 years of subsidy to the Scots might be a little cruel. But taking the 8 per cent figure of Britain’s assets, if a future independent Scotland were to take its fair share of the UK national debt — currently £1.1 trillion, excluding bank bail-outs – that would amount to £88 billion.
It might be better for Mr Salmond to suggest we call it quits, rather than push his luck. His government’s own statisticians disclosed that, in 2009-10, Scotland ran a £14.9 billion deficit on top of its subsidy, or a staggering 13.4 per cent of its GDP.



It is no wonder, in the light of these awkward economic facts, that the most popular option for Scottish Nationalists is the so-called ‘devo max’ proposal, which sounds like one of those overpriced energy drinks. It is certainly overpriced, and it is intended as a compromise under which Scotland would have more power devolved to itself, while remaining in the United Kingdom — in other words, on the English payroll.

Some of us always feared that Scottish devolution would end up as a means of setting up a parliament in Edinburgh whose main job it was to extract English taxpayers’ money from Westminster.
‘Devo max’ would give the Scots a blank cheque once more. It is simply unacceptable and unfair to England.
Mr Salmond can have as many referendums as he likes, ask Scottish voters whatever questions he thinks fit, and orchestrate everything to exploit the heightened sense of nationalism he hopes will result from celebrations of great anniversaries in his country’s calendar, such as Bannockburn in 1314 — or the Bay City Rollers’ first Number One in 1975.
But he must pay for all this and its consequences out of the Scots’ own pockets, and not send the bill to London.

Meanwhile, it is time that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom stood up for the interests of everyone in this Kingdom.

If Scotland is going to be granted a referendum on whether or not it stays in the Union, could someone please explain why England can’t have one, too? Or do the rights of majorities count for nothing?

Personally, I am convinced that Scotland would be making a catastrophic mistake if it left the Union. It would flounder as an independent country with its own economy.
It could not expect hand-outs from English taxpayers, and the old slogan of ‘Scotland independent in Europe’ is now comical considering the state of the eurozone economy. The EU would have no money to bail it out either.

Another huge question: would an independent Scotland join the euro, and risk ending up like a cold-weather version of Greece? I know Edinburgh is supposed to be the ‘Athens of the North’, but that would be ridiculous.

Another great danger would be that as an independent Edinburgh government drove up tax rates to try to remain solvent, people would flood south over the border to relocate their businesses and their domiciles for tax purposes, and in many cases just to shop in England where prices would be lower.
Anyone who doubts such an outcome ought to consider how shopkeepers in Northern Ireland near the border with the Republic have flourished during Ireland’s economic nightmare.

North Sea oil will also eventually run out, and there are concerns about the future of the Scottish financial services sector which has been badly wounded since RBS nearly went under.


No wonder ‘devo max’ is so popular. It would provide the illusion of independence while the English —the national equivalent of the ‘bank of mum and dad’ — continued to pick up the bill.

I have always considered one of the great mistakes in England’s history was the rejection of Gladstone’s first Home Rule Bill for Ireland in 1886.
The legacy of that decision was a century and a quarter of bloodshed and misery, and the estrangement from Britain of a people with whom we have much historically and culturally in common.
Of course, if the Scots are rash enough to decide to go it alone, the English cannot — and must not —coerce them to stay.
But the English must, in all fairness, be allowed to make their own decision, too, about the future of the Union. Westminster-based politicians must explain to the majority in the Kingdom why it would benefit England for the status quo to be maintained.
David Cameron has been made to look foolish by Mr Salmond. Yet, since Scotland needs England more than England needs Scotland, Mr Cameron has all the weapons in this battle. It is time he stopped being pushed around, and deployed them.




Yesterday's Darling

Alistair Darling is apparently leading the movement to stop the Scots voting for independence. Labour desperately wants to save the Union, not least so that ambitious Scots politicians such as him can continue to get lucrative jobs in London. Mr Darling is also being spoken of as a possible replacement for Ed Miliband, on the grounds that he has ‘credibility’.
Where does this ‘credibility’ come from? Isn’t this the same man who, as Chancellor between 2007 and 2010, presided over the spending binge that almost destroyed the British economy?



Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1jOjnk6W8
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image : Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Hense amongst such a mighty multitude of men, the same make and form is found in all, eyes stern and blue, yellow hair, huge bodies, but vigorous only in the first onset: Tacitus

#2 Andy

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:19 AM

Can someone tell me why we need the Scots?

Why we need the British union, other then it being some quaint reminder to days of empire and commonwealth it is doing us in England bugger all good.
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image : Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Hense amongst such a mighty multitude of men, the same make and form is found in all, eyes stern and blue, yellow hair, huge bodies, but vigorous only in the first onset: Tacitus

#3 Oath-Bearer

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:29 AM

Because if Scotland walks out then poor old Cameron would be a little less powerful.

#4 Unbroken Shieldwall

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:42 AM

If Scotland walks out then Cameron should go with 'em afterall he's an ethnic jock. Interesting about the Shetlands possibly wanting independence. The Shetlanders are descendants of the 9th/10th century viking raiders and have no relation to Gaels so It's a possibility as with the Orcadians.

We better get our bloody subs back as well. In a fair exchange obviously. Tony,Gordon and Dave?

#5 Woden's Child

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:07 AM

The article is pro union, and its basic message is that Scotland would be better off by staying in the Union - this, after telling us how much Scotland costs us each year!  It concedes that Scotland needs England more than we need Scotland, so why should I give a shit whether Scotland leaves the Union? If it is to break up then it should be a clean break with no subsidies from England. In fact, we'll be generous and let them have a fair share of our immigrant population as a parting gift. After all, we're always being told that immigration is good for the economy.

You call it freedom and tolerance. I call it a death dance for England


#6 Andy

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:08 AM

View PostOath-Bearer, on 14 January 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Because if Scotland walks out then poor old Cameron would be a little less powerful.

It would be a disaster for Labour not for the Camoron and the Conservatives.
The Conservatives get very few votes in Scotland.
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image : Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Hense amongst such a mighty multitude of men, the same make and form is found in all, eyes stern and blue, yellow hair, huge bodies, but vigorous only in the first onset: Tacitus

#7 Steven

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 11:36 AM

Heffer's a staunch unionist so you could say 'he would say that, wouldn't he'. If the Scots vote yes for independence Labour will be the biggest losers. The Tories are despised by working class Scots, remember Maggie's tartan Poll Tax experiment, a year before the rest of the UK? The Tories were kicked out, returning not one MP to Westminster for the next two General Elections. Name change methinks for The Conservative and Unionist Party.

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#8 Harold Godwinsson

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:55 PM

Well you know my feelings on this subject, so i'm not saying any more, only this..........

FUCK EM..........................as they've been FUCKING US FOR 300 YEARS!!Posted Image
Lo þær drohtoþ ic lóc min fæder, Lo þær dorhtoþ ic lóc min módor ond min gesweostor, ond min gebródor. Lo þær drohtoþ ic lóc séo lang of min Angelfolc. Lo hig drohtoþ gecégan æt mé ond bid mé bryidan min bæcern ámang þæge rice þæt wiusæl of valhalla bæcern þæt mðdhwæt magan búan widan.

"Lo There do i see my Father. Lo There do i see my Mother. My Sisters and my Brothers. Lo There do i see the line of my People going back to the Beginning. Lo They do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. In the Halls of VALHALLA. Where the BRAVE MAY LIVE FOR EVER."

Harold II Cining of á þæt Angelfolc wæs ond áforþ sy uncer rihtcynn inlendiac cining.

HAROLD II, KING OF ALL THE ENGLISC. WAS AND STILL IS OUR TRUE NATIVE KING.

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#9 Aengifu

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 05:03 PM

View PostHarold Godwinsson, on 14 January 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

FUCK EM..........................as they've been FUCKING US FOR 300 YEARS!!Posted Image

.. and they never finish what they started.

#10 Harold Godwinsson

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:17 PM

What does one expect from back ward so-called Celts!!
Lo þær drohtoþ ic lóc min fæder, Lo þær dorhtoþ ic lóc min módor ond min gesweostor, ond min gebródor. Lo þær drohtoþ ic lóc séo lang of min Angelfolc. Lo hig drohtoþ gecégan æt mé ond bid mé bryidan min bæcern ámang þæge rice þæt wiusæl of valhalla bæcern þæt mðdhwæt magan búan widan.

"Lo There do i see my Father. Lo There do i see my Mother. My Sisters and my Brothers. Lo There do i see the line of my People going back to the Beginning. Lo They do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. In the Halls of VALHALLA. Where the BRAVE MAY LIVE FOR EVER."

Harold II Cining of á þæt Angelfolc wæs ond áforþ sy uncer rihtcynn inlendiac cining.

HAROLD II, KING OF ALL THE ENGLISC. WAS AND STILL IS OUR TRUE NATIVE KING.

Posted Image

#11 Witnere

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:46 PM

I understand the rhetorical nature of the question that forms this thread's title. The simple answer- Obviously we don't, and in fact they're a liability. The sooner they do the decent thing and depart, the better. There was a photoshopped image of the Union Jack above Parliament with the blue Scottish bit taken out in the Sun today, obviously designed to create pro-Union feelings and alarm in the foolish. I actually found it more attractive. And it would be even better without the red saltire of St.Patrick!  If losing the blue bit out of the UJ is the best argument they can produce for preserving the Union, well there isn't much to recommend it then, is there?
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#12 edmundy

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 02:45 PM

Surely we can just solve the oil dilemma by building a great big pumping station on our side of Berwick...then suck that black gold out,just like Daniel Day-Lewis's character in that film 'There will be blood'..I think that's what it was called anyway:)

#13 Woden's Child

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 09:19 PM

View Postedmundy, on 23 January 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

...just like Daniel Day-Lewis's character in that film 'There will be blood'.
Oh yeah, I remember him before he was Irish.

You call it freedom and tolerance. I call it a death dance for England


#14 scouserbob

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:49 PM

View PostWitnere, on 14 January 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

I understand the rhetorical nature of the question that forms this thread's title. The simple answer- Obviously we don't, and in fact they're a liability. The sooner they do the decent thing and depart, the better. There was a photoshopped image of the Union Jack above Parliament with the blue Scottish bit taken out in the Sun today, obviously designed to create pro-Union feelings and alarm in the foolish. I actually found it more attractive. And it would be even better without the red saltire of St.Patrick!  If losing the blue bit out of the UJ is the best argument they can produce for preserving the Union, well there isn't much to recommend it then, is there?

Doesn't the Scottish Sun support independence? Yet the Sun in England is pro-union. You couldn't make it up... (Unless you edit a fleet street tabloid obviously).
Give England back to the English, sing it if you dare...

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#15 Guy

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 08:46 AM

Quote........But the English must, in all fairness, be allowed to make their own decision, too, about the future of the Union. Westminster-based politicians must explain to the majority in the Kingdom why it would benefit England for the status quo to be maintained. unquote......... And there lies the conundrum, When they say the English, and bearing in mind how slippery these Politicians are, it really means them who will make the decision for us! What must be firmly planted into the English Public's mind is the over representation of Scots who hold English Constituencies and anyone of influence who may have been born in England who still staunchly cling onto their Scottish Heritage [no problem with that] many of these people speak with a flawless English accent and a lot of the Public are seduced into thinking they are actually English.
When it comes to making monumental decisions that the Independence issue brings, these Politicians and influential People will skew it to see that Scotland will still be on the Payroll. This is something that must have a careful eye placed on it because they'll be going for the Devo-Max  if they are given a multiple choice option.
Posted Image

Push us the Englisc too far, and you shall know the full meaning of retribution.

Fair play, tolerance and freedom. Over the last millennium all of these qualities have marked us out as a nation and so, in the future, will continue to do so... They also say that we're always pissed, completely arrogant and hate foreigners... Ah well, nobody's perfect!


#16 edmundy

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:25 PM

Oh,to just have the chance to vote on the breakup of the one-sided 'Union'! Reckon the English 'Yes' camp would be pretty much 90% to see the back of them. But then of course our 'Masters' know that and would never allow that to happen. I think we are all agreed on here there is no hope for the ballot box when those in position try and manipulate the circumstances before they allow democracy to come into play.

#17 bri

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:51 PM

just been reading loads of  comments,regarding devo max and the English subsidising scotland on some gaurdian page,there seemed to be quite a lot of scots thinking they deserved the extra money,due to the oil and scottish whiskey,which is worth 4 billion a year,apparantly,someone also mentioned that 8.6% of the population pays 10% of the treasurys money,and because of all this they reckon they are more than capable of supporting themselves after independance,.quite a few where under the impression that the English were ignorant and under-informed and that English subsidies where a myth.there did'nt seem to be many English replies,so i would be very interested to hear what you folks reckon to all this,is it the usual scottish lies and rubbish.