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#1 Ridda

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 09:49 PM

Evening all,
Could some very knowledgable folc explain to me the origins and reasons for Harold's flag ie. the white dragon and the red back ground. Also, what flags/standards would have been flown before Harold's time.
Many thanks
Ridda
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#2 Andy

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 01:10 AM

Hi Ridda.

You can find a couple of earlier posts on the white Dragon flag but basically.

The Anglo Saxons were several Germanic tribes who were invited to Britain by the Britains to protect them from raiding Picts in northern Britain and the Irish. (note there were no Scots in Northern Britain).

These tribes, Saxons Angle, Frisiens, Jutes would have had different flags.
The flag of Kent (Hengest and Horsa who were Jutes) is the white horse.
The flag of Saxon Wessex was the two legged dragon or the Wyvern.

The numerous Anglo Saxon tribes settled different area of central and southern Britain and made those lands their own. This became known as the Heptarchy.

At certain times these warrior tribes would fight and conquer the others and those over kings were named Bretwalda

Offa of Mercia (Eald Englisc pronounced Merchia, they never pronounced c as an s) was a king of the Angle's and it was he who first used the name Rex Anglorum (Latin) or king of the Englisc rather then Bretwalda.

I would imagine that whomever was bretwalda or Rex Anglorum would keep his flag and thus it would be the Englisc flag whilst he or his heirs were king of the Englisc.

Harold Godwinson (Englisc father Danisc mother)was king of Wessex and their flag was the golden two legged dragon. It is clearly seen on the Bayeux tapestry hitting the floor at the same time king Harold gets cut down/arrow in the eye.
Posted Image
Was this symbolic???
Harolds personnal banner was the Fighting man banner which isnt shown on the tapestry I believe.




SO

We know Harold of Wessex fought and died beneath the two legged dragon of Wessex. Harold was the last Englisc king of England thus the two legged dragon is a genuine Englisc symbol. It represents a time when the Englisc were the governance of the Englisc.

So we Englisc (the ethnic not the civic wannabee fakes) have a genuine grounds for use of the dragon. I prefer the Wyvern to the four legged ones that are in use today.


As for the use of a white Dragon

there is a story that Vortigern who invited the Anglo SAxons to Britain tried to build a castle in Wales but every night the works fell to the ground. Vortigerns advisors told him to sacrifice a child but this child was wise and told him that two serpents were in a lake below the hill. A red serpent of the Britons and a white serpent of the Anglo Saxons.

Nennius wrote;

"Who," said the boy, "instructed you to do this?" "My wise men," answered the king. "Order them hither," returned the boy; this being complied with, he thus questioned them: "By what means was it revealed to you that this citadel could not be built, unless the spot were previously sprinkled with my blood? Speak without disguise, and declare who discovered me to you;" then turning to the king, "I will soon," said he, "unfold to you every thing; but I desire to question your wise men, and wish them to disclose to you what is hidden under this pavement:" they acknowledging their ignorance, "there is," said he, "a pool; come and dig:" they did so, and found the pool. "Now," continued he, "tell me what is in it;" but they were ashamed, and made no reply. "I," said the boy, "can discover it to you: there are two vases in the pool;" they examined, and found it so: continuing his questions," What is in the vases?" they were silent: "there is a tent in them," said the boy; "separate them, and you shall find it so;" this being done by the king's command, there was found in them a folded tent. The boy, going on with his questions, asked the wise men what was in it? But they not knowing what to reply, "There are," said he, "two serpents, one white and the other red; unfold the tent;" they obeyed, and two sleeping serpents were discovered; "consider attentively," said the boy, "what they are doing." The serpents began to struggle with each other; and the white one, raising himself up, threw down the other into the middle of the tent, and sometimes drove him to the edge of it; and this was repeated thrice. At length the red one, apparently the weaker of the two, recovering his strength, expelled the white one from the tent; and the latter being pursued through the pool by the red one, disappeared. Then the boy, asking the wise men what was signified by this wonderful omen, and they expressing their ignorance, he said to the king, "I will now unfold to you the meaning of this mystery. The pool is the emblem of this world, and the tent that of your kingdom: the two serpents are two dragons; the red serpent is your dragon, but the white serpent is the dragon of the people who occupy several provinces and districts of Britain, even almost from sea to sea: at length, however, our people shall rise and drive away the Saxon race from beyond the sea, whence they originally came; but do you depart from this place, where you are not permitted to erect a citadel; I, to whom fate has allotted this mansion, shall remain here; whilst to you it is incumbent to seek other provinces, where you may build a fortress."

So though not as old as the wyvern these two stories give reason for we modern Englisc to use a white dragon just as the Welsh (the Brytons) now use the red dragon.
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#3 Unbroken Shieldwall

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:29 AM

We were invited over here to protect the Welsh? I'd have stayed in lovely warm Firesland..... .fyou
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#4 Andy

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:01 AM

We were invited over here to protect the Welsh? I'd have stayed in lovely warm Firesland..... .fyou


Well they were not called Welsh then.
They were the Brytons. When the Roman legions left they had no one to protect them from raiders such as the Picts, Irish saxons etc. I believe that because the Romans made use of the Germanic warriors during their occupation of Britain their king Vortigern turned to them to assist him protect the Brytons.

Again I believe it was the Angles whom mainly came as protectors due to their settling in Northern and Central Britain.
Vortigern may have allowed the Angles to settle northern Britain to use them as a barrier to these raiders, much like Charlemaigne? did with the Vikings thus forming Normandy.
The Saxons/Jutes landed in the South of Britain, hardly a good position to fight the Picts or Irish!

The Eald Englisc word for a foreigner is Wealisc hence the Brytons became known as the Welsh. This is why the Welsh nationalist party is called Plaid Cymru not the Welsh nationalist party. To Welsh nationalist Welsh is a slur.

So the Angles settled in the northern/central Britain a buffer against the Picts. Settling along Hadrians wall and the Antonine wall.
The Irish raiders (called in Latin 'Scotti' I believe) turned their attention onto northern Britain where the Picts lived. These Scots are as much immigrants as are we English.



The Angles (of whom I consider my ancestry) homeland was Angeln in what is today called Denmark. Wikipedia show their ignorance by assuming it took its name from Angleing/fishing or the shape of the land :lol: :lol:
Again from Saxo Grammaticus we know that the early Angle kings Wermund, Wiglaf and Offa were Angles who lived in Angeln. :lol:

Saxo Grammaticus tells that one of the kings of Denmark had two sons called Dan and Angul, FFS its not hard to put together this Angul, the Angle people and Angeln the land.
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#5 Geraldine

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:14 AM

Even the Normans and other French-speakers called our land "Angleterre". The ground or land of the Angles.
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" Halal (and Kosher) is a guarantee that the animal you are eating, died slowly, in pain and terror, choking on its own blood." Pat Condell.

"And then none shall be so odious and distained as the traitours... who have sold their countrie to a straunger." - Sir Walter Raleigh

#6 Sceadugenden

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 12:01 PM

Evening all,
Could some very knowledgable folc explain to me the origins and reasons for Harold's flag ie. the white dragon and the red back ground. Also, what flags/standards would have been flown before Harold's time.
Many thanks
Ridda

To add to the above answers I think many would have had their own standards in their own colours and art such as Wolves, Boar , Horses, Stags , weapons and later crosses and saints on whatever colours that they favoured. They would have fought under those and of their King. Just as modern regiments do today , the Queens colour, regimental colour . Where as RN ships have the White Ensign and the ships crest.
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If Halal slaughter is so humane and stress free, it would be used to dispatch criminals on death row world wide.

#7 Rídend

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:52 PM

Note that a lot of the representations of “flags” of this period appear to be more like windsocks. There is no reason why such a tube construction could not have been conceived and used as they catch even the slightest of movement and breezes better. It would be an interesting experiment to craft one of these narrow banners from authentic materials (likely linen), and then affix them to a pole to see how they function as opposed to a regular flag shape of the same material. Maybe even get Badger on his horse to ride at full tilt to see if the resistance is too great with a windsock construction :blink: . . . though an open end would mitigate this.
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#8 Geraldine

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:54 PM

I had a go at this last year, Ridend. The style was just an ordinary aero windsock as seen on every airfield. The first one was polycotton, not very authentic, but ok to practice with. I made a wyrm shaped hole, intending to sew the white wyrm into the negative shape, but I was not clever enough. The polycotton did not work in the air, either.
The next was silk, I think it is possible that traders brought it this far. Well that's my excuse anyway.
I made two wyrms, one for each side, but sewn onto the tube. I chose the wyrm in the Bayeaux Tapestry, like my old avatar. The silk was much better and fluttered nicely.
The next stage was going to be making a metal head with a sort of single reed (like a recorder)in the mouth so that it roared like a draco but Life and Christmas happened, and I never got that part right. But I will do, I'm just slow. I said I would post pictures, and I will. ;)
My theory is that the draco was whirred around by a foot soldier. Later in the Middle Ages, over Europe, it became quite an art, using vast flags. The opposing standard bearers would intimidate and provoke, with elaborate displays.
I contacted a woman who is a qualified sword fight instructor last year about 'cloak and dagger' and various self defence work from blades, and at her school they occasionally did classes in flag-waving. I forget the correct term, but it was straying into European territory (not Englisc). Interesting nonetheless.
There is so much one would like to do, but it is fitting it in, around other duties.

Just checked. It is called "Bandiera" and is inextricably linked with the use of the sword. It says. A bit Itiddlyitie (Italian) for me. About the 17th Century.
Our way was better - just thump 'em with a bloody big stick mate. :blink:
  • 2
" Halal (and Kosher) is a guarantee that the animal you are eating, died slowly, in pain and terror, choking on its own blood." Pat Condell.

"And then none shall be so odious and distained as the traitours... who have sold their countrie to a straunger." - Sir Walter Raleigh

#9 Sarmatian atte wayte

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:35 PM

The Sarmatians whom were posted along Hadrians wall from 175ad to the time the Anglo saxons arrived to do the very same job flew a red or green Draco Standard. This standard was flown atop a large pole and held by Sarmatian Cavalrymen, a symbol they carried with them from their homeland beyond the Carpathian Mountains.
This Standard was in the shape of a windsock and resembled a Serpeant with no hiend legs.

The Sarmatians built communities and raised families along Hadrians wall for over 200 years.

They assimilated into what is known as the Brythons.

I strongly believe that The Anglo Saxons who were payed to defend the North would have met with such remaining Sarmatians and would definately have seen the Draco Standard.

The similarities, the timeline and physical side of things to me all point to the Dragon being introduced and adopted during this point in time.

A massive coincidence.......no

The thing that escites me is that I have both Anglo Saxon and Sarmatian Ancestors...

If you disagree than sheath your swords Brothers and Sisters it is just my theory. :lol:
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Our sprits were forged in snow and ice

To bend like steel forged over fire

We were not made to bend like reed

Or turn the other cheek



So raise your horns to those who died, Let's drink to fallen friends tonight, Let's celebrate their glory life, We'll meet again in Valhall when we die!

This is a waking for England, From it’s reticent doze, This is a waking for England, Lest hope and glory are regarded as foes..


#10 Rídend

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:19 PM

I had a go at this last year, Ridend. The style was just an ordinary aero windsock as seen on every airfield. The first one was polycotton, not very authentic, but ok to practice with. I made a wyrm shaped hole, intending to sew the white wyrm into the negative shape, but I was not clever enough. The polycotton did not work in the air, either.
The next was silk, I think it is possible that traders brought it this far. Well that's my excuse anyway.
I made two wyrms, one for each side, but sewn onto the tube. I chose the wyrm in the Bayeaux Tapestry, like my old avatar. The silk was much better and fluttered nicely.
The next stage was going to be making a metal head with a sort of single reed (like a recorder)in the mouth so that it roared like a draco but Life and Christmas happened, and I never got that part right. But I will do, I'm just slow. I said I would post pictures, and I will. :crazy:. . . .


Good to see somebody having a go at this theory. :lol: Now your next project is to start weaving some fine linen using traditional methods, and then make up some flags. :crazy:
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#11 Sarmatian atte wayte

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:30 PM

Good to see somebody having a go at this theory. :lol: Now your next project is to start weaving some fine linen using traditional methods, and then make up some flags. :crazy:


Wow I totally forgot about the Dragon windsock on the Bayeux Tapestry...This is identical to the Sarmatian Draco Standard. :crazy:
  • 0

Our sprits were forged in snow and ice

To bend like steel forged over fire

We were not made to bend like reed

Or turn the other cheek



So raise your horns to those who died, Let's drink to fallen friends tonight, Let's celebrate their glory life, We'll meet again in Valhall when we die!

This is a waking for England, From it’s reticent doze, This is a waking for England, Lest hope and glory are regarded as foes..


#12 badger

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:12 AM

Maybe even get Badger on his horse to ride at full tilt to see if the resistance is too great with a windsock construction :lol: . . . though an open end would mitigate this.


My days of full-tilting are pretty much gone now Ridend. It's as much as I can do to stay on at a canter these days! Anyway, anything above a walk and your ale spills. So it's a case of "Walk on", slurp, burp and "Tally-ho, there goes the hairy-arsed little bastard". And "I'll catch up with you at the next pub".
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Posted Image

"And you were planning to build this mosque of yours where, exactly?"


#13 Rídend

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 02:07 AM

My days of full-tilting are pretty much gone now Ridend. It's as much as I can do to stay on at a canter these days! Anyway, anything above a walk and your ale spills. So it's a case of "Walk on", slurp, burp and "Tally-ho, there goes the hairy-arsed little bastard". And "I'll catch up with you at the next pub".

.drunk That's the Badger we love and know and we wouldn't have it any other way. .thumbsup
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#14 badger

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 10:12 AM

.drunk That's the Badger we love and know and we wouldn't have it any other way. .thumbsup


*Badger becomes enveloped in a warm. fuzzy glow!*

Oh bugger, I've p''''d meself again!

Posted Image
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Posted Image

"And you were planning to build this mosque of yours where, exactly?"


#15 Sarmatian atte wayte

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 02:00 PM

*Badger becomes enveloped in a warm. fuzzy glow!*

Oh bugger, I've p''''d meself again!

Posted Image


I've just had 8 Adnams and Im almost pissing myself too Badger :wd:
  • 0

Our sprits were forged in snow and ice

To bend like steel forged over fire

We were not made to bend like reed

Or turn the other cheek



So raise your horns to those who died, Let's drink to fallen friends tonight, Let's celebrate their glory life, We'll meet again in Valhall when we die!

This is a waking for England, From it’s reticent doze, This is a waking for England, Lest hope and glory are regarded as foes..